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» SmaugMuds.org » Codebases » AFKMud Support & Development » Council Code - Stay or go?
Forum Rules | Mark all | Recent Posts
Council Code - Stay or go? (7 Votes)
Keep it. It's useful.  57.14% - 4 votes

Toss it. It's wasteful.  42.86% - 3 votes

I have a better idea( please specify )  0% - 0 votes

Council Code - Stay or go?
< Newer Topic :: Older Topic > Do you use it? Do you not?

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Post is unread #1 Sep 18, 2003, 8:52 am
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Samson
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As you might infer from the poll, we're in another code cleanup phase. As I was going over some stuff to accomplish this, I ran across the council code.

Basically what a council does is function similarly to a mortal clan or guild. But apparently it goes a bit further in that you can assign commands to them for members to use. However, this check is not strictly enforced.

We've never once made use of this code, not even as an experiment. But before removing it ( or not ) we'd like to know if anyone else who uses the code has ever had need of them or might have ways to improve upon it, or if you'd just like to see it gone in the interest of bloat reduction.

Post your answers here.
       
Post is unread #2 Sep 18, 2003, 5:09 pm
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Quixadhal
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It looks to me (quick perusal of the code) that councils were intended to be clans that had a meeting/voting system. I don't really see any actual use of the meeting concept though, so maybe it was never finished?

I like the idea of a voting system for clans (especially if you extended clans to allow arbitrary ranks), so perhaps something can be scavanged from there and merged into the clan setup. The idea of custom powers is nice, but you'd have to have solid admin support to create such things.

My own game (which I'm thinking of ranaming to NeverDone *grin*) will focus more on political goals, so voting and ranks have some appeal. I would rather do individual "powers" through agents of the clan/guild/whatever -- IE: if you would have the "power" to tax the citizens of your city (as a ruling council would), then a tax-collection mob could be made to obey members of this clan and roam around town extorting--errr-collecting revenue. A voting system would tie in nicely, as you could code an assassin who would try to kill a named person, but only after a successful vote by the clan.
       
Post is unread #3 Sep 22, 2003, 12:30 am
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Snowleaf

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I haven't looked at the council code too closely. From what I understand councils are for immortals and the powers you can set are bestowed powers. I made one as a test but I wasn't able to coinduct anyone.

I think the main intent was to have a group of low level immortals bestowed specific commands while not making all commands available to them. For instance, making a Builder council but not letting them have all the commands a level 106 immortal may have access to. Instead of having to bestow each builder immortal you could just toss them into the council that has all the appropriate bestows preset.

Having them in a council would also enable you to let them have a talk channel for builders only with the counciltalk command.

Now in all practicality if you had a group of immortals building, you'd usually opt to run a build port and normal port so that the builders were on a separate server than the live server, but depending on your hosting provider, this might not be an option for you, so you might have some immortals building zones on the live server which would make having a building council a viable option.

I think it may be a good idea to keep the code if it's given a face lift so it works as it's intended to. On the other hand it could be unnecessary for alot of people, thus bloating your mud. Maybe if it was moved and hooks put in place so you had the option of enabling it at compile time like I3 and IMC code then those who might need it could turn it on and those who didn't need it could disable it.

On a mud I play on, they have mortal "game guides" which are given a very restricted list of commands. They can load food, water, or a light source into a player in need, use a limited goto command that lets them goto recall points in various cities, and a limited transfer of player characters to their current location. They have their own channel they can talk on amongst themselves, and receive messages on the immortal PRAY channel from players praying for help. I can see councils being used for something of this nature.
       
Post is unread #4 Sep 22, 2003, 5:04 am
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Xorith
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Councils on SMAUG were for both Mortal and Immortal. The permission check wasn't all that enforced there, and I can assume that with all the changes AFKMud has been through that it's less enforced now.

If anything, they are for show. It'd be better replaced with something resembling a social club code or the like...

I don't use them though. I did with Kalith on SMAUG, but then I had... well.. 3 Councils and 3 Immortals. Again! Pointless!

Oh, and to note... you have to set yourself Head of the council to coinduct
       
Post is unread #5 Sep 22, 2003, 11:33 am
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kilroy
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After reading the comments above about Councils, I doubt that I would ever use it on my mud

Kilroy
       
Post is unread #6 Sep 22, 2003, 5:14 pm
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Zhamel

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Councils can be useful if the need for them is there. They are not as useful on smaller muds because the staff (Immortals and Mortals) isn't as big, thus don't fill them in as much and they seem emty and pointless. On some larger muds they can be used to a great extent. Of course this all depends on how they are set up, checks and security stuff int he code, and run.
       
Post is unread #7 Sep 23, 2003, 6:48 am
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Xorith
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I've never really liked them, personally. Especially when you have admins who make councils like 'Newbie Council' or 'Code Council'. See, I'm a roleplayer... You'd never see councils like that in my MUD.

The idea of giving a set standard of powers to a group of people who do the same thing is a very very notable idea. I don't like the 15 Immortal levels in a MUD because it's hard to find the right place to start someone out for something like building.

However, if all the building commands were grouped under one flag or 'thing' set on a player or players, then it'd be easier to get someone up to that point.

Now aside from setting powers, the council code also set a messageboard and meeting room and all that. *shrug*
       
Post is unread #8 Sep 23, 2003, 10:58 am
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kilroy
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I don't like the 15 Immortal levels in a MUD because it's hard to find the right place to start someone out for something like building.

Personally I just started my builders at level 108
they make a 50vnum area, complete with progs (this then is installed as a 108 - 115 area, and then they get promoted and given a bigger range

Kilroy
       
Post is unread #9 Oct 1, 2003, 6:55 pm
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Samson
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Just thought I'd bump this baby back into the light. The issue has been far from decided. Plenty of time left to comment on this thing.
       
Post is unread #10 Oct 2, 2003, 7:21 pm
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Quixadhal
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In thinking about it (aside from how it may actually be coded!), I can see a place for councils. Councils, clans, and guilds/classes all kindof provide the same services from the code's point of view. They all group players in some fashion, and they all have the potential to offer them additional commands, channels, languages, etc.

In my own game, I'm planning to replace the single class structure with a competitive hierarchy of classes (guilds), so players join later guilds only after meeting the pre-reqs for simpler guilds.. and some guilds will exclude one another. That way, not every mage on the planet gets the same fireball spell, and similar localizing and regionalizing. So, from that point of view, players elect to join a guild at will, but it is computer driven.. the guild master NPC's decide who gets in, and what abilities are granted.

Clans are purely player-driven. Players can form clans at will, and they decide who gets in, and who doesn't. They also get to decide what abilities their members get (subject to availability by the imps, of course). As such, their abilities are greatly limited (or should be!), and it's up to the players to take actions for or against their members.

I can see Councils as the immortal equivalent of these things. A council might be created by immortals, and might serve mostly as a meeting vehicle -- channels and boards specific to the council's purpose. Abilities, as such, probably don't matter much since most immortals already have what they need. It might be possible, on occasion, for a commitee to induct a mortal into their group and thus grant them limited powers for the duration of a project (possibly editing room descriptions to fix typos before an area is officially opened... possibly being able to load specific mobs to help balance test... etc).

Having said that, I don't think the CURRENT implentation quite supports that... but I also haven't had the time to go look at it in depth. As Zhamel said, this would probably go unused on small muds, but on a game with a dozen immortals, handing out projects like this might be very useful.

I also don't see the need for so many immortal levels, and that need would diminish further if councils were used for this purpose. Generally, your imms fall into several categories, each of which has a set of powers they need. This is how I (mentally) split them up, I'm curious what other people do...

IMP -- need I say more? Usually only one.
arch-wizard -- all IMP powers, except promotion/demotion.
domain-lord -- anything within a zone, cannot create new zones or delete zones.
balance-lord -- can edit anything, but not create. interaction with mortals allowed.
wizard -- can build within an assigned zone, but cannot load.
tester -- can load within an assigned zone, cannot edit or create... can trans mortals for testing.
       
Post is unread #11 Mar 8, 2004, 9:47 am
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cynshard

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I recently added a set of flags to all immortal commands so that I can restrict commands based on jobs. Samson suggested that I *could* use council code to get the same effect, although I was nearly finished by them time I read his post. I think flagging commands may have turned out to be slightly less of a hassle. As far as immortal grouping goes, on my game , we have the following jobs: Implementor, Coder, Builder, Clan/Guild/Real-Estate Manager, Editor (checks zones, etc for typos and grammer, yay fun!), Newbie Assitant, Game Balance God, Quest God, History/RPG Development, and Public Relations (I don't think anyone will ever fill/want to fill this one ). Some people (ME) fill more than one position, and for each position there is a leader/chairperson and 0 or more lower level gods.
ALL new gods start out at level 102 and are assigned commands that concern there job they were hired for, and the standard set of Base commands for that level ( goto, bamf etc..).

Needless to say, I have no use for councils at the moment.

Cynshard
       
Post is unread #12 Mar 8, 2004, 6:57 pm
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spallapiden

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As a small mud i have no use for councils, nor use for 15 levels of immortals, i did however change all the levels of the imm commands to better reflect my own thoughts on who got what, i have 3 positions for imms , a general imm gets the normal set of commands for doing this job, a builder gets thos and all the building commnds that they would nedd to build and myself and the co-owner get all the rest, I like the ide of being able to flag commands to a person, i could take on a few more temps that way and only give them what commands they need to do the job.
       
Post is unread #13 Jul 24, 2004, 5:57 am
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Txzeenath
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I myself use councils as organizations who run a particular part of the mud.. such as "Sojourner Council" deals with newbies, Justice Council deals with justice related issues etc. but the checks themselves aren't all that great..
       
Post is unread #14 Jan 7, 2005, 6:48 pm
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Thlundar

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I use councils. They are useful. For example the Newbie Council is given the newbieset and newbiechat powers (so even the mortal members can ACTUALLY help newbies). Oh, and in smaug 1.4+ it's hardcoded that newbie council members can enter the battlegrounds in newacad.are to help newbies also. I also have an Area council and a Supreme Council and a Quest Council. Of course, since I have so few players and imms these days (what happens to a mud when you leave it untended for a year because of Uni) these councils are pretty useless. On a larger MUD however with actual task delegation they can be used extensively and effectively to let people know who does what jobs, and to give those people doing those jobs the powers they need to do that job effectively (without advancing them).

You might find there's a bug allocating new councils though that can crash the mud, some memory freeing issue, can't really remember. Muck around creating councils and setting their filenames, some combination of that was the problem I recall.
       
Post is unread #15 Jan 7, 2005, 7:41 pm   Last edited May 7, 2005, 1:56 pm by Samson
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Samson
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Should be noted that eventually the council code will be removed from the public code, due to the current results of this poll. It's already been taken out of the development version.

As for the setting filenames and crashing bug, that one has long since been fixed along with pretty much every other posted Smaug bug - and some that were long forgotten and never posted.

EDIT: Before the forum conversion the results on this poll were 16-7 in favor of removal.
       
Post is unread #16 Feb 12, 2005, 9:12 pm
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Zeno
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I use councils myself. We have a RP Council and the such, that's all we use it for so far. Something I took out though were deities, but probably because of my theme.
       
Post is unread #17 May 15, 2005, 6:18 am
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Txzeenath
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Ohwell... not that difficult to code a custom council system, it can be done by even a novice with a copy and paste button. Bestow code, clans code, put em together and you got a council.
       
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